Reverent Responses

Homosexual Christians:
Maarten van den Driest Responds


[Posted on September 18, 2000]

Dear brother in Christ:

First off, thanks for sending such a long letter, especially since it must have caused you some discomfort. I am unsure what you expect from Whosoever. I will now proceed to write a response to your complaints in which I will attempt to explain my way of thinking. I think differently than you do. If you have already decided that we are wrong on all accounts anyway, regardless of what I will say, there is little point in you reading on. On the other hand, if you are willing to engage in reasonable discussion, I would be very happy.

It strikes me you cite John 3:16 in your signature. It is the source of the name of our website. "... whosoever that in Him believeth..." It doesn't say "that all heterosexuals that believe in Him..."

Anyway, I will answer all your objections one by one. I will admit that I don't understand each and every verse that can be found in the Bible. There are such texts that I have trouble dealing with. None, however, deals in any way with homosexuality.

My friend,.....your website appears to be little more than a pathetic attempt at an alibi. At one point along the way, much to do is made about the misuse of the Sodom accounts given in the book of Genesis. Your understanding of the Word of God is chocked full of subjetive human reasoning that allows for a rationalization for your way of life. I regret to have to say that you're sorely deceived.

Then what is your understanding of the Sodom-story? Now, is the problem that I misread the word of God or that I don't agree with you on how to explain the word of God? I think it is the latter. There is an important difference. The 'literal' reading of the text suggests some strange things. Were all the people in Sodom homosexual?? Then how did they make children? Why did Lot offer his daughters gay men? Any actual gay men would of course not be interested sexually in women and would certainly not have accepted that offer. Maybe those rapists in Sodom weren't gay and the thought that they were is just people reading their own views into it. I will remind you that in earlier days, people thought the principal sin was that the raped men were angels. There are some more questions. Anyway, you seem to have read the information on the site. Much more can be found elsewhere on the Net. Also it isn't true, even in literal reading, that Sodom was destroyed for its inhabitants being gay, even if they were all gay. God clearly makes the decision before the rape scene.

You're looking for the social acceptability that you don't rightfully deserve in our society. TRUE history reveals that this country was founded upon belief in the Word of God, faith in Christ, and personal freedom. You want a PERMISSIVE society,...not a free one. You're willing to upbraid any TRUE child of God who stands for an immutable, holy standard while you make excuses for your perverted way of life.

I look for no such thing as I do not need your or anyone else's permission to be myself. The worth of an individual human lies in himself, or in God's opinion, not in anyone else's view. In actuality, the Founding Fathers came to America to escape religious persecution in the first place. I regret their heritage is now used to persecute us. What do you mean by 'permissive'? Is it a society in which everything is allowed? Surely you don't believe Whosoever advocates such a society? Extremely little gay people would want to live in a country in which everything is allowed. All gay people would want to live in a country that allows them to be themselves.

Furthermore, we do not make excuses since we don't believe we are perverted anyway. Remember that 'perverted' is a name you have decided to call us. It cannot tear us loose from the love of Christ. In essence, we do the same as you are doing, we are trying to walk Jesus' path in life to the best of our abilities.

You are at enmity with God,....your way of life is openly hostile torwards God while you sail under the banner of peace, love and happiness. Your religion, like other heretical, false religions, will lead you straight to eternal judgement. The sadness is that this is so needless. You don't have a heart for the Lord.....you're doing the bidding of the adversary. It's not God's will that you seek to do, but to have your own way.

Is it God's will that you write people you have never met and say horrible things to them? Is that the heritage of Christ? In our writings, you will find no judgments of other people - judge not lest ye yourself be judged - you will find nothing against other people. We simply give our views on our own place on the Net, now since when is that contrary to the will of God? Remember that the first Christians had a terrible time dealing with all the other people, who didn't understand what they meant and showed no compassion. Also realise that we are in the same position now, we are not understood by masses of people who also show us no compassion. Also remember that compassion is one of Christ's biggest issues.

My friend,..take heed,....queers, homosexuals, faggots, effeminate,,...choose your own title,..will go straight into eternal judgement.

'Effeminate' indeed! How can you equate a really old Greek word with 'all homosexuals'? So, the word is in the Bible, some people are seen as immoral. How can that be "all homosexuals"? Enormous numbers of homosexual people are not effeminate. An ever greater number of straight people are. What you, my friend, are doing here is reading historical views into the Bible. You take what very important people have said in the past about God's word and then equate it with God's word. Actually, the Bible says a few things about some forms of gay conduct - mainly temple prostitution - and says they're bad, it says nothing about homosexuality as is. But then again, the Bible also has a lot to say about heterosexuality. Surely you wouldn't say all straight people are bad just because the Bible has something against straight prostitutes? Yet you do the same to us?

One of your first clues that your way of life is incongruent with nature as God created it is obvious. Can you not see it? It's IMPOSSIBLE for you to procreate the human race!! God, during the process of creation, set certain natural laws into effect,...it exists on virtually every level of creation. Species were to replenish their numbers by normal procreation requiring BOTH male and female. Often, the unsaved enjoy looking to the animal kingdom to "learn about themselves",..the idea here is that we find something of ourselves in their behaviours and instincts. Well, here is a question for you,........have you ever seen 2 male lions having anal intercourse on the fields in Africa? How about 2 dogs having anal intercourse on the side of a road somewhere in rural America? If you have, I would like for you to advise me of when and where such an extraordinary event took place. Furthermore, if you did witness such an event, did it produce progeny?...cubs, kittens, puppies, etc. I seriously doubt it. How do you respond to this challenge?

Not. It is quite true that gay people cannot procreate. But infertile women also cannot procreate and still every year untold numbers of women (and men) are born with some (genetic) defect that stops them from procreating. Also, is procreation the only worth of a man? Can people be rated on the amount of children they have? Then why didn't Christ have children? What does it mean to be 'fruitful' and 'to multiply'? Also, is it still God's will to create as much kids as possible in a world that has serious food problems? If I adopt a child and help it be a good, well-adjusted adult then didn't I fulfill that verse? And please don't start with me about 'perverting children' because tens of thousands of children actually exist that were raised by gay parents and they are no better or worse than other people. This was actually researched. There are enormous numbers of married heterosexual people that cannot have sex for some reason. Does that mean that their relationship is now worthless? Of course not. In the same sense, a homosexual relationship can have a tremendous worth, even without procreation.

Homosexual sexuality is found in nature and is actually quite widespread. Dolphins spring to mind as an example but I'd have to research a bit to find out more.

Additionally, how do you rationalize away the clear doctrinal teachings about the perversity of your way of life? How clear does the Bible need to be before you'll kneel before the Lord of heaven and earth and repent of this disgusting perversion?

Show me the doctrine. In any case, I don't usually care about people's doctrines, I care about what the Bible says to me. Show me the actual verses. Then again, I am not much of a theologian, there are dozens of documents to be found on the Net that will explain to you how some gay Christians think about relevant Bible verses. I suppose you've read the Reverend Responses, they already explain a lot. It is my viewpoint that none of my views are against the Bible only because they're not the same as yours. People have pulled some nasty doctrines from that very same Bible in the past. Why couldn't they be wrong again? Please explain to me why 'doctrine' supported slavery so long.

I'm not the One before Whom you'll be accountable,...you're without hope in this world or the one to come, my friend.

Indeed. I believe you confuse two things here. Luckily you are indeed not whom I must account to and that is precisely why I do have hope in this world and the world-to-come. I believe God is bigger than our doctrines and faiths together.

God is clear concerning your way of life,. ....He is AGAINST it!!! As long as you persist in this perversion, your heart is unrepentant and you remain in your sins.

Yes, I must repent. I have sinned a lot. But my sins are not 'being gay', they are more common things like being mean to people, showing little respect to others, judge too quickly, etc. For those I will try to repent and I will try to be better in the future. Also, I believe God is - in the Bible - quite clear about those who want to force others into their own belief structure.

Gay Christian? Impossible!! You're one or the other,....you're gay, or you're a Christian!! Is there a such thing as a Christian Child Molestor? How about a Christian Murderer? What about a Christian Bank Robber? Can you not see the insanity and stupidity in your chosen position on these issues?

What about a Christian child molester? He has committed a great sin but he is still a Christian. Also, gay people are not normally child molesters or murderers or bank robbers. Most child abuse is done in heterosexual homes. If the heterosexual family is so much better than the homosexual family than why are so many children taken out of their homes each year, badly scarred? All an evil gay plot? I think not, we have better things to do.

You AREN'T a Christian,....!!!!

Who is a Christian? He who says, "Christ is Lord." Who are you to stop me asking Christ to live in my heart? Who are you to limit God's powers? I am a Christian. I firmly believe in Jesus Christ the Messiah, who is king over the world and my personal Saviour. Just because I don't act like you doesn't mean anything. Have you ever talked to gay people in a friendly way? Have you ever gone to the MCC or visited one of their services? Maybe you should do so, you would find loads of dedicated gay and straight Christians who devoutly believe. All I want to say is: have you checked?

When I go to a church service, then according to you I am being deceived. According to me I am visiting a church service. Now, who is right? Do you know me better than I do? Do you know me better than God does?

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Nice of you to say so. Thank you for yours.

Don

Psalms 150:6
John 3:16

Nice quotes. Praise the Lord, Don and please help me pray for speedy reunification of all of Christ's children.

Greetings from Maarten