Homosexual Christians?

“Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence.” — 1 Peter 3:15

Note: All letters are posted as they were received. No spelling or grammar errors have been corrected. Links to responses are at the end of the letter.

Editor:

My friend,…..your website appears to be little more than a pathetic attempt at an alibi. At one point along the way, much to do is made about the misuse of the Sodom accounts given in the book of Genesis. Your understanding of the Word of God is chocked full of subjetive human reasoning that allows for a rationalization for your way of life. I regret to have to say that you’re sorely deceived.

You’re looking for the social acceptability that you don’t rightfully deserve in our society. TRUE history reveals that this country was founded upon belief in the Word of God, faith in Christ, and personal freedom. You want a PERMISSIVE society,…not a free one. You’re willing to upbraid any TRUE child of God who stands for an immutable, holy standard while you make excuses for your perverted way of life.

You are at enmity with God,….your way of life is openly hostile torwards God while you sail under the banner of peace, love and happiness. Your religion, like other heretical, false religions, will lead you straight to eternal judgement. The sadness is that this is so needless. You don’t have a heart for the Lord…..you’re doing the bidding of the adversary. It’s not God’s will that you seek to do, but to have your own way.

My friend,..take heed,….queers, homosexuals, faggots, effeminate,,…choose your own title,..will go straight into eternal judgement. One of your first clues that your way of life is incongruent with nature as God created it is obvious. Can you not see it? It’s IMPOSSIBLE for you to procreate the human race!! God, during the process of creation, set certain natural laws into effect,…it exists on virtually every level of creation. Species were to replenish their numbers by normal procreation requiring BOTH male and female. Often, the unsaved enjoy looking to the animal kingdom to “learn about themselves”,..the idea here is that we find something of ourselves in their behaviours and instincts. Well, here is a question for you,……..have you ever seen 2 male lions having anal intercourse on the fields in Africa? How about 2 dogs having anal intercourse on the side of a road somewhere in rural America? If you have, I would like for you to advise me of when and where such an extraordinary event took place. Furthermore, if you did witness such an event, did it produce progeny?…cubs, kittens, puppies, etc. I seriously doubt it. How do you respond to this challenge?

Additionally, how do you rationalize away the clear doctrinal teachings about the perversity of your way of life? How clear does the Bible need to be before you’ll kneel before the Lord of heaven and earth and repent of this disgusting perversion? I’m not the One before Whom you’ll be accountable,…you’re without hope in this world or the one to come, my friend. God is clear concerning your way of life,. ….He is AGAINST it!!! As long as you persist in this perversion, your heart is unrepentant and you remain in your sins. What could be plainer? Deny the clear biblical instruction about your perversions, and you’re either a liar or a fool!!…probably both!!!….at the very least, you’re unsaved.

Gay Christian? Impossible!! You’re one or the other,….you’re gay, or you’re a Christian!! Is there a such thing as a Christian Child Molestor? How about a Christian Murderer? What about a Christian Bank Robber? Can you not see the insanity and stupidity in your chosen position on these issues?

You AREN’T a Christian,….!!!! Actually repent of your sins, and come to Jesus Christ, and you’ll begin to discover what a true Christian really is!! Until you decide to accept Christ and become saved, you couldn’t possibly know what a true Christian is!! You need to be clear on these points.

God DOES love you, but DOESN’T accept you according to your own concept of who He is, or your own concept about the Christian faith. The choice is yours,…repent of your sins, or bear the consequences for having rejected Christ, the truth of the Word, and His holy standards. Choose!!!

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Don

Psalms 150:6
John 3:16


Neil Ellis Orts responds: Dear Don,

Candace, the editor of Whosoever, has asked me to make a few responses to you letter to her. I’ll do so paragraph by paragraph and try not to delete any part of your letter.

My friend,…..your website appears to be little more than a pathetic attempt at an alibi. At one point along the way, much to do is made about the misuse of the Sodom accounts given in the book of Genesis. Your understanding of the Word of God is chock full of subjective human reasoning that allows for a rationalization for your way of life. I regret to have to say that you’re sorely deceived.

Don, I have no alibi, pathetic or otherwise. I am gay. I fought it for years, but now I rest in that identity. I believe God helped me achieve that rest. I’m cannot tell from the paragraph above if you agree that the Sodom story has been misused or not, but as for subjective human reasoning . . . which is more human to reason? That God recognizes only love between man and woman (the type of love that seems reasonable from a biological point of view) or that God recognizes love and faithfulness, whether it is between a man and a woman, a woman and a woman or a man and a man?

In other words, the things that God does often doesn’t make “sense” in the human understanding of things. I often wonder at how some Christians say, “This doesn’t make sense but it seems to be God’s way,” and then turn around and say, “This makes total sense, it must be God’s way.” I don’t know if you are the type to say this. I’m just saying that in the realm of “subjective human reasoning,” I bow to the acknowledgement that I have not the wisdom to always say I know the mind of God.

You’re looking for the social acceptability that you don’t rightfully deserve in our society. TRUE history reveals that this country was founded upon belief in the Word of God, faith in Christ, and personal freedom. You want a PERMISSIVE society,…not a free one. You’re willing to upbraid any TRUE child of God who stands for an immutable, holy standard while you make excuses for your perverted way of life.

Other places in other contexts can better argue the validity of how or why this country was founded. I do not see it as relevent to the argument of whether God acceptes homosexual relationships.

I do not wish for a permissive society. I will say that I believe that this is a society, if not of permissiveness, then of irresponsibility. I just got off the phone from a conversation with a friend (a straight woman, if it matters) and we were sitting in amazement at different acquaintances and how they will not take responsibility for their own actions. What I wish people could learn to see is that actions have repercussions that will negatively affect them and others around them. There’s something in our fallen nature that doesn’t want to see this. I wish it were otherwise. But that’s all side-chatter to the fact that I do not see issues of permissiveness or responsibility as being directly pertinent to whether or not God finds homosexual relationships irredeemable.

I will now address my “perverted way of life.” I generally don’t like sharing my personal life with people I don’t really know, but I will say that I haven’t so much as kissed a man in over 10 months. (I take that back, if you count the brotherly kiss I gave a friend at church in sympathy for the passing of his partner of 34 years due to cancer. It was truly a “kiss of peace.” No tongue involved!) I hold a job as an administrator in a university. I think there is a perversion of sorts in large bureaucracies and there are days that I am truly sorry to take part in it, but I doubt that is what you’re referring to. Other than that, however, I cannot see how you can possibly call my fairly mundane day to day life perverted. If my orientation is a perversion, then you have to explain to me how the rituals practiced by heterosexuals in the many bars in this town are not intrinsically condemning of heterosexuality. You see, there are places where perversions take place, but they are not limited to hetero or homosexuals. Yet when heterosexuals practice them, it does not condemn heterosexuality. So, the fact that homosexual perversions take place is not really pertinent to whether God honors and accepts faithful homosexual relationships.

You are at enmity with God,….your way of life is openly hostile torwards God while you sail under the banner of peace, love and happiness. Your religion, like other heretical, false religions, will lead you straight to eternal judgement. The sadness is that this is so needless. You don’t have a heart for the Lord…..you’re doing the bidding of the adversary. It’s not God’s will that you seek to do, but to have your own way.

There is so much in this paragraph . . .

As near as I can tell, I have led a life of pursuing God, of wanting to love God with my whole self. This journey included years of praying about my sexuality. I had many, many people along the way tell me that being gay was okay, but I refused to believe it. It was actually in prayer with God that I first caught a glimpse of God loving and accepting and calling me to accept my sexuality. I do not really sail under the banner of peace, love and happiness (in many ways, I had more of those superficially before I came out) but the banner of peace, love and happiness (well, tha last word seems sort of sappy to me, but I’ll go with for now) is more like a stretcher that carries me.

The phrase “eternal judgment” interests me. Forgive me if I slip into a discussion on semantics, but if I understand judgment, it is a one time event somewhere at the end of time, and does not go on forever. Salvation or damnation does, but not the judgment itself. Sorry if it appears I’m making fun or simply playing with semantics, but I’m a writer and certain phrases will spark my imagination. I feel certain there is a story in your phrase. If there is one and it gets published, I’ll have to give you credit somewhere in the foreword of the book.

Back to the topic at hand, I do not know how to vindicate myself in your eyes. You’ve already condemned me on practically no information. Truly, what do you know about my heart and my desire for God’s will in my life? What do you know about my desire for my own way?

With the same amount of information, I can say of you, “you do not have a heart for God but a heart for your own self-righteous feelings of superiority. You are an adversary to the Good News of Jesus about forgiveness and redemption and the end to sin. Like all false cults, you set up walls that keep people out and demonize them for being outside the walls.”

Doesn’t exactly open one up for discussion, does it?

All I ask is that you listen to the stories of gay Christians before telling us we don’t exist. I’ll try to listen to your stories of why you believe as you do. It’s okay to disagree and it may even help us grow into the Kingdom of God. But let us not start out by condemning each other’s hearts without taking the time to get to learn about one another.

My friend,..take heed,….queers, homosexuals, faggots, effeminate,,…choose your own title,..will go straight into eternal judgement. One of your first clues that your way of life is incongruent with nature as God created it is obvious. Can you not see it? It’s IMPOSSIBLE for you to procreate the human race!! God, during the process of creation, set certain natural laws into effect,…it exists on virtually every level of creation. Species were to replenish their numbers by normal procreation requiring BOTH male and female.

This falls, to me, under “human reasoning.” It is what we see and it makes sense and so it must be the only way. Yet, I know most heterosexual couples don’t have sex only to procreate. There is a fecundity in the sexual act itself, a fertility in a loving relationship that creates more than just more people. This is of the Spirit, not of the flesh.

Often, the unsaved enjoy looking to the animal kingdom to “learn about themselves”,..the idea here is that we find something of ourselves in their behaviours and instincts. Well, here is a question for you,……..have you ever seen 2 male lions having anal intercourse on the fields in Africa? How about 2 dogs having anal intercourse on the side of a road somewhere in rural America? If you have, I would like for you to advise me of when and where such an extraordinary event took place. Furthermore, if you did witness such an event, did it produce progeny?…cubs, kittens, puppies, etc. I seriously doubt it. How do you respond to this challenge?

Have you, in turn, seen two dogs (regardless of gender) remain faithfully monogamous with each other? Despite some research that suggests that homosexuality doesn occur in species other than humans (and I don’t want to get into that because I can neither prove or disprove that myself) I do not think the animal kingdom has many if any models for any sexual relationships between humans.

Furthermore, in all other arguments about the human creature being separate from the rest of the animal kingdom, the differences are shown as to why we are made in God’s Image. (Language, abstract thought, memory, what have you.) Suddenly, however, when it comes to this one topic (sexuality) we are to conform with animals or else we’re not human. I will not play on that un-even field.

Additionally, how do you rationalize away the clear doctrinal teachings about the perversity of your way of life? How clear does the Bible need to be before you’ll kneel before the Lord of heaven and earth and repent of this disgusting perversion?

Quite a bit clearer, actually.

I’m not the One before Whom you’ll be accountable,…

Although you’ve spent a long letter acting as though you are . . .

you’re without hope in this world or the one to come, my friend.

And so you tell me the hope I have in Jesus is pointless and without efficacy?

God is clear concerning your way of life,. ….He is AGAINST it!!! As long as you persist in this perversion, your heart is unrepentant and you remain in your sins.

God has been clear in my life. God seems really unconcerned with my sexuality. The perversions in my heart that God has been working on most is my tendency to judge others without pity, my tendency to accuse others in such a way that makes me look better, any number of things that pretty much boil down to simple, evil pride. It was, in fact, the prayer experience I alluded to above wherein God told me I was proud and unable to accept my own sexuality. It is very humbling to have to accept that which I had previously written and spoken against.

What could be plainer? Deny the clear biblical instruction about your perversions, and you’re either a liar or a fool!!…probably both!!!….at the very least, you’re unsaved.

Liar or fool? I cannot deny either charge. I have been both and will likely be both again. My sexuality has little to do with it.

Unsaved? How can you tell me that when just lines earlier you said that wasn’t your call?

Gay Christian? Impossible!! You’re one or the other,….you’re gay, or you’re a Christian!! Is there a such thing as a Christian Child Molestor? How about a Christian Murderer? What about a Christian Bank Robber? Can you not see the insanity and stupidity in your chosen position on these issues?

What I see is a very simplistic view of the world. As a matter of fact, yes there are such things as Christian Child Molesters, murderers, and bank robbers. Christians have been known to do all these sins and more. Their sexuality had little to do with any of those acts. Please do not confuse the topics.

You AREN’T a Christian,….!!!! Actually repent of your sins, and come to Jesus Christ, and you’ll begin to discover what a true Christian really is!! Until you decide to accept Christ and become saved, you couldn’t possibly know what a true Christian is!! You need to be clear on these points.

That Christ has apparently chosen me is going to be of little consequence to you, I can see. I cannot tell exactly from type on a screen, but the above is taking on the appearance of angry ranting, forgive me for saying so. I have to ask you, do you or do you not have authority to judge one’s heart and mind and decide who is a Christian? You have said one and acted as if it’s the other.

God DOES love you, but DOESN’T accept you according to your own concept of who He is, or your own concept about the Christian faith. The choice is yours,…repent of your sins, or bear the consequences for having rejected Christ, the truth of the Word, and His holy standards. Choose!!!

Does God accept YOU according to YOUR OWN concept of who He is or your own concept of the Christian faith? Read what you just wrote above and see if you cannot hear them in regard to your own faith. We are probably both wrong about certain aspects of our faith. Until we can acknowledge that with some humility instead of proclaiming that we individually have the whole truth of God, we will never be able to communicate. Simply shouting at me that I’m condemned does not make it so, but it does cut off conversation. Your choice is whether you really want a conversation or if you simply want to shout at people because they (we) have different views from you.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

I have tried to give some of each to you. I ask the same of you.

Thank you.
Neil

Mark 12:28-31


Rev. Vera I Bourne responds: Dear Don,

Thank you for the love and concern you have shown for those of us who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered and Christian. I am one of those whose faith is based on the text you quoted – John 3: 16 – one whose whole life here on this earth and future in the next is based not on my own accomplishments but on the accomplishments of Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Eternal God, who lived and died for my sins and so provided the way of reconciliation back to God.

The relationship I have with God is not a matter of debate; it is between myself and God, as is every person’s relationship with our Creator. The fact of my salvation is not for any person to weigh up or judge, and Jesus did warn his hearers against judging others (see Matthew 7: 1-5). Nowhere in Scripture does Jesus condemn loving relationships between people of the same sex.

As I note you equate “normal” sex with the potential of reproduction, I wonder what your attitude is to those who are born intersexed. Currently one child in every thousand in Great Britain is born without defined sexual organs – they have undeveloped sexual organs of both genders, and no matter how extensive surgical procedures are carried out, upon reaching adulthood these children will never be able to reproduce. Do you include these in your condemnation? A similar number of animals are also being born intersexed. In nature, homosexual behaviour is as normal as heterosexual behaviour; in fact it is simply a variant of sexual behaviour. Those of us whose life is spent on rural properties see evidence of this daily.

I agree that the story of Sodom as detailed in Genesis presents us with a horrifying situation, one which confronts both homosexuals and heterosexuals. Imagine a city against which God had predetermined destruction, before Abraham interceded in an attempt to change God’s mind. What crimes must they have committed there! We do witness the efforts of men within that town to rape God’s holy angels – something which is almost beyond our comprehension – but one which Scripture describes elsewhere as a lust for “different flesh” (see Jude 7). And we also see Lot offer his two virgin daughters to the crowd to appease their sexual lust. I find no evidence recorded there of any homosexual behaviour.

God has not left us unaware of the reasons for the destruction of Sodom. In Ezekiel 16 verses 49 and 50 we read: “Behold this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.” In verse 52 we hear God warn the inhabitants of Jerusalem that even the sins of Sodom were not as gross as those they had committed.

Other Scriptural texts which confirm the sins of Sodom may be found in:

  • Deuteronomy 29:22-28 — serving false gods;
  • Deuteronomy 32:15-19, 21-25 and 31-33 — apathy, sacrifice to demons, idolatry and gluttony;
  • Isaiah 1:2-4, 9-10, 20 and 23-31 — forsaking God, showing contempt to God,
  • Isaiah 3:8-11, 15 — oppression, discrimination.

I believe that all God has made is good; does not Scripture assure us of this fact? That we are different from each other demonstrates the diversity of God’s creation. In the past there was a tendency to twist Scripture to justify slavery and apartheid. Nowadays most Christians deny the validity of such arguments. I believe God loves all that has been created, and that includes both you and me. I believe we each have the capacity to discover the fullness of God’s love, forgiveness and grace. I believe we could start the process of mutual understanding by regularly praying for each other, asking that we hear each other’s voice clearly and that we may be reconciled in Jesus. May God continue to bless you.

Shalom,
Vera


Maarten van den Driest responds: Dear brother in Christ,

First off, thanks for sending such a long letter, especially since it must have caused you some discomfort. I am unsure what you expect from Whosoever. I will now proceed to write a response to your complaints in which I will attempt to explain my way of thinking. I think differently than you do. If you have already decided that we are wrong on all accounts anyway, regardless of what I will say, there is little point in you reading on. On the other hand, if you are willing to engage in reasonable discussion, I would be very happy.

It strikes me you cite John 3:16 in your signature. It is the source of the name of our website. “… whosoever that in Him believeth…” It doesn’t say “that all heterosexuals that believe in Him…”

Anyway, I will answer all your objections one by one. I will admit that I don’t understand each and every verse that can be found in the Bible. There are such texts that I have trouble dealing with. None, however, deals in any way with homosexuality.

My friend,…..your website appears to be little more than a pathetic attempt at an alibi. At one point along the way, much to do is made about the misuse of the Sodom accounts given in the book of Genesis. Your understanding of the Word of God is chocked full of subjetive human reasoning that allows for a rationalization for your way of life. I regret to have to say that you’re sorely deceived.

Then what is your understanding of the Sodom-story? Now, is the problem that I misread the word of God or that I don’t agree with you on how to explain the word of God? I think it is the latter. There is an important difference. The ‘literal’ reading of the text suggests some strange things. Were all the people in Sodom homosexual?? Then how did they make children? Why did Lot offer his daughters gay men? Any actual gay men would of course not be interested sexually in women and would certainly not have accepted that offer. Maybe those rapists in Sodom weren’t gay and the thought that they were is just people reading their own views into it. I will remind you that in earlier days, people thought the principal sin was that the raped men were angels. There are some more questions. Anyway, you seem to have read the information on the site. Much more can be found elsewhere on the Net. Also it isn’t true, even in literal reading, that Sodom was destroyed for its inhabitants being gay, even if they were all gay. God clearly makes the decision before the rape scene.

You’re looking for the social acceptability that you don’t rightfully deserve in our society. TRUE history reveals that this country was founded upon belief in the Word of God, faith in Christ, and personal freedom. You want a PERMISSIVE society,…not a free one. You’re willing to upbraid any TRUE child of God who stands for an immutable, holy standard while you make excuses for your perverted way of life.

I look for no such thing as I do not need your or anyone else’s permission to be myself. The worth of an individual human lies in himself, or in God’s opinion, not in anyone else’s view. In actuality, the Founding Fathers came to America to escape religious persecution in the first place. I regret their heritage is now used to persecute us. What do you mean by ‘permissive’? Is it a society in which everything is allowed? Surely you don’t believe Whosoever advocates such a society? Extremely little gay people would want to live in a country in which everything is allowed. All gay people would want to live in a country that allows them to be themselves.

Furthermore, we do not make excuses since we don’t believe we are perverted anyway. Remember that ‘perverted’ is a name you have decided to call us. It cannot tear us loose from the love of Christ. In essence, we do the same as you are doing, we are trying to walk Jesus’ path in life to the best of our abilities.

You are at enmity with God,….your way of life is openly hostile torwards God while you sail under the banner of peace, love and happiness. Your religion, like other heretical, false religions, will lead you straight to eternal judgement. The sadness is that this is so needless. You don’t have a heart for the Lord…..you’re doing the bidding of the adversary. It’s not God’s will that you seek to do, but to have your own way.

Is it God’s will that you write people you have never met and say horrible things to them? Is that the heritage of Christ? In our writings, you will find no judgments of other people – judge not lest ye yourself be judged – you will find nothing against other people. We simply give our views on our own place on the Net, now since when is that contrary to the will of God? Remember that the first Christians had a terrible time dealing with all the other people, who didn’t understand what they meant and showed no compassion. Also realise that we are in the same position now, we are not understood by masses of people who also show us no compassion. Also remember that compassion is one of Christ’s biggest issues.

My friend,..take heed,….queers, homosexuals, faggots, effeminate,,…choose your own title,..will go straight into eternal judgement.

‘Effeminate’ indeed! How can you equate a really old Greek word with ‘all homosexuals’? So, the word is in the Bible, some people are seen as immoral. How can that be “all homosexuals”? Enormous numbers of homosexual people are not effeminate. An ever greater number of straight people are. What you, my friend, are doing here is reading historical views into the Bible. You take what very important people have said in the past about God’s word and then equate it with God’s word. Actually, the Bible says a few things about some forms of gay conduct – mainly temple prostitution – and says they’re bad, it says nothing about homosexuality as is. But then again, the Bible also has a lot to say about heterosexuality. Surely you wouldn’t say all straight people are bad just because the Bible has something against straight prostitutes? Yet you do the same to us?

One of your first clues that your way of life is incongruent with nature as God created it is obvious. Can you not see it? It’s IMPOSSIBLE for you to procreate the human race!! God, during the process of creation, set certain natural laws into effect,…it exists on virtually every level of creation. Species were to replenish their numbers by normal procreation requiring BOTH male and female. Often, the unsaved enjoy looking to the animal kingdom to “learn about themselves”,..the idea here is that we find something of ourselves in their behaviours and instincts. Well, here is a question for you,……..have you ever seen 2 male lions having anal intercourse on the fields in Africa? How about 2 dogs having anal intercourse on the side of a road somewhere in rural America? If you have, I would like for you to advise me of when and where such an extraordinary event took place. Furthermore, if you did witness such an event, did it produce progeny?…cubs, kittens, puppies, etc. I seriously doubt it. How do you respond to this challenge?

Not. It is quite true that gay people cannot procreate. But infertile women also cannot procreate and still every year untold numbers of women (and men) are born with some (genetic) defect that stops them from procreating. Also, is procreation the only worth of a man? Can people be rated on the amount of children they have? Then why didn’t Christ have children? What does it mean to be ‘fruitful’ and ‘to multiply’? Also, is it still God’s will to create as much kids as possible in a world that has serious food problems? If I adopt a child and help it be a good, well-adjusted adult then didn’t I fulfill that verse? And please don’t start with me about ‘perverting children’ because tens of thousands of children actually exist that were raised by gay parents and they are no better or worse than other people. This was actually researched. There are enormous numbers of married heterosexual people that cannot have sex for some reason. Does that mean that their relationship is now worthless? Of course not. In the same sense, a homosexual relationship can have a tremendous worth, even without procreation.

Homosexual sexuality is found in nature and is actually quite widespread. Dolphins spring to mind as an example but I’d have to research a bit to find out more.

Additionally, how do you rationalize away the clear doctrinal teachings about the perversity of your way of life? How clear does the Bible need to be before you’ll kneel before the Lord of heaven and earth and repent of this disgusting perversion?

Show me the doctrine. In any case, I don’t usually care about people’s doctrines, I care about what the Bible says to me. Show me the actual verses. Then again, I am not much of a theologian, there are dozens of documents to be found on the Net that will explain to you how some gay Christians think about relevant Bible verses. I suppose you’ve read the Reverend Responses, they already explain a lot. It is my viewpoint that none of my views are against the Bible only because they’re not the same as yours. People have pulled some nasty doctrines from that very same Bible in the past. Why couldn’t they be wrong again? Please explain to me why ‘doctrine’ supported slavery so long.

I’m not the One before Whom you’ll be accountable,…you’re without hope in this world or the one to come, my friend.

Indeed. I believe you confuse two things here. Luckily you are indeed not whom I must account to and that is precisely why I do have hope in this world and the world-to-come. I believe God is bigger than our doctrines and faiths together.

God is clear concerning your way of life,. ….He is AGAINST it!!! As long as you persist in this perversion, your heart is unrepentant and you remain in your sins.

Yes, I must repent. I have sinned a lot. But my sins are not ‘being gay’, they are more common things like being mean to people, showing little respect to others, judge too quickly, etc. For those I will try to repent and I will try to be better in the future. Also, I believe God is – in the Bible – quite clear about those who want to force others into their own belief structure.

Gay Christian? Impossible!! You’re one or the other,….you’re gay, or you’re a Christian!! Is there a such thing as a Christian Child Molestor? How about a Christian Murderer? What about a Christian Bank Robber? Can you not see the insanity and stupidity in your chosen position on these issues?

What about a Christian child molester? He has committed a great sin but he is still a Christian. Also, gay people are not normally child molesters or murderers or bank robbers. Most child abuse is done in heterosexual homes. If the heterosexual family is so much better than the homosexual family than why are so many children taken out of their homes each year, badly scarred? All an evil gay plot? I think not, we have better things to do.

You AREN’T a Christian,….!!!!

Who is a Christian? He who says, “Christ is Lord.” Who are you to stop me asking Christ to live in my heart? Who are you to limit God’s powers? I am a Christian. I firmly believe in Jesus Christ the Messiah, who is king over the world and my personal Saviour. Just because I don’t act like you doesn’t mean anything. Have you ever talked to gay people in a friendly way? Have you ever gone to the MCC or visited one of their services? Maybe you should do so, you would find loads of dedicated gay and straight Christians who devoutly believe. All I want to say is: have you checked?

When I go to a church service, then according to you I am being deceived. According to me I am visiting a church service. Now, who is right? Do you know me better than I do? Do you know me better than God does?

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Nice of you to say so. Thank you for yours.

Don

Psalms 150:6
John 3:16

Nice quotes. Praise the Lord, Don and please help me pray for speedy reunification of all of Christ’s children.

Greetings from Maarten


Rev. Dr. Jean Orost responds: Dear Don,

Your letter to Whosoever has stimulated much thought and prayer. I see from your closing, that you take Psalm 150:6 and John 3:16 as your identifying scriptures. Perhaps we could start there, as we, too, at Whosoever have adopted John 3:16 as our theme. We believe in God’s Word, as you do, and affirm wholeheartedly the scripture that “God sent his only beloved Son into the world, that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And we take those words literally, like you appear to do with other passages, believing that God meant “whosoever,” when God said “whosoever.” To me, that means anyone and everyone who believes.

In Romans 10:9-10, we read “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.” This passage goes on to say that in Christ there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for God is gracious to all who call upon Him (v.11-13). How great a salvation this is. Even my own righteousness is not earned, but is given to me, through the blood of Christ, and becomes mine when I just believe it. I have accepted this great and wonderful gift of God’s grace, and believe that you, who call me friend, are also my brother in Christ.

Now, in Jesus’ day, to tell a Jew that he was like a Greek or a Gentile in any way was to insult him. The Jews, as God’s chosen people, had come to believe all kinds of rumors and ideas about what those “awful sinners” did and how they lived their lives. Those who were the sexually approved (circumcised) shunned and condemned the sexual outcasts (uncircumcised, eunuchs, sterile, adulterers, etc.). So when God said there was no distinction between them anymore, many were outraged. How could God possibly love sinners such as those? Indeed! How could God love sinners such as you and I? Yet, God, in His infinite kindness, chose to offer the free gift of salvation to all. And some of those who have accepted that gift happen to be gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgendered, or any one of a dozen different categories to which people have been born or assigned. Yes, Don, Jesus came that “whosoever will may come” to Him.

You know, Peter doubted this message for a while, too. We read in Acts 10 that Peter was praying and went into a trance and God told him to eat all kinds of creeping things that the Scriptures told him not ever to eat. Peter refused God, telling Him he was wrong! But God said, “What I have cleansed, call thou not unclean” (v.15). God’s immutable laws were changed by the new covenant. Peter, like you, was not easily convinced, so God had to give him the message over again. Peter was finally convinced by God’s revelation and interpreted it to mean that even those foul, unclean Gentiles, who do all those disgusting things, could be saved by the Gospel. And do you know, not one of those lobsters God told Peter to eat, was transformed into a fish! And in Acts 15, we read that none of those Gentiles had to be converted to Judaism either in order to be considered members of the Family of God. Praise God that the message of the Gospel is for all people, including homosexuals as well as heterosexuals, men and women, slave or free, rich or poor. And, since none of us can claim salvation through our own righteousness, that puts us all on equal footing before God.

Yes, Don, I am, and have known many gay and lesbian Christians, men and women who love the Lord and have devoted their lives to serving God. Men like Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, Hans Christian Andersen, Walt Whitman, and Alexander Hamilton, all of whom you know for their wonderful contributions to our civilization, were all gay. Christian women like Emily Dickinson, Edna St. Vincent Millay, and Florence Nightingale were all lesbians. And there are thousands more, nameless and often unrecognized, who are gay and Christian, serving faithfully as pastors, teachers, organists, choir directors, deacons, elders, custodians, counselors, and clerks in your and others’ churches. Do not think that you don’t know any gay Christians, just because they may not think you are a safe enough person to come out to. I pray that you will get to know some of these fine people, because you sound like a person who believes in your own life experiences.

To get back to your theme scriptures, Ps. 150: 6 exhorts everyone who has breath to praise God. God, who breathed Spirit into each of us, has showered out many blessings for which we should all praise God, including our sexuality. You asked for illustrations of animals that sexually engage their same sex. I have a male dog, and I have known many others, who mount other dogs, male and female, and even the male cat. Cows mount each other when they are in heat. You could learn about other examples from The Learning Channel or The Discovery Channel, or Animal Planet. But let’s look at humans, who God created to return His love and fellowship. As a sexual person yourself, it is likely that very rarely have your sexual activities resulted in creating another human being. God did not give us this great gift for procreation alone, but as a means of expressing our love and devotion to the wellbeing and satisfaction of our beloved. This human feeling is not restricted to only one sex or only one orientation. And yes, homosexual people do sometimes procreate. Moreover, it had been my observation that as parents and other relatives age and need assistance, it is frequently the devoted gay or lesbian daughter, nephew, or grandson who, not having children, takes on the major responsibility for the care of the aging relative. What a Christian thing to do, despite the frequent and persistent rejection they may have received in that family.

I hope that I have answered many of your concerns. I will continue to pray for God’s blessing upon your own Christian witness.

Yours in Christ,
Rev. Dr. Jean Orost