Interview: Dr. Lucas F.W. Wilson, Author of ‘Shame-Sex Attraction: Survivors’ Stories of Conversion Therapy’

by Rev. Paul M. Turner in Books

A beacon of hope and a rallying cry for justice

Releasing later this month, Dr. Lucas F.W. Wilson’s anthology, Shame-Sex Attraction: Survivors’ Stories of Conversion Therapy, is an urgent and necessary work that sheds light on the dark truths of so-called “conversion therapy” — the pseudoscientific name for a set of damaging practices used for decades to attempt to change victims’ sexual orientation and/or gender identity.

Having personally known some of the writers, I can attest to the bravery and resilience required to share such harrowing experiences. The voices of Gregory Elsasser-Chavez, Chaim J. Levin, Lexie Bean, Syre Klenke and many others contribute to a powerful narrative that speaks volumes about the strength of the LGBTQ+ community.

This book is an invaluable resource for those in ministry, activists, mental health professionals, and all who support the fight for LGBTQ+ rights. By amplifying survivor stories, we take a critical step toward ensuring that such atrocities never affect future generations.

Shame-Sex Attraction is more than an anthology; it is a beacon of hope and a rallying cry for justice. As we continue to challenge and dismantle systems of oppression, this collection serves as a reminder and evidence that our stories hold immense power in creating change.

I urge everyone to read this book not only to educate themselves about the horrors of sexual orientation/gender identity change efforts masquerading as therapy, but also to uplift and support the brave individuals who have shared their experiences.

Today more than ever, we need to stand together in solidarity and work toward a future where all LGBTQ+ people can live and love freely without fear of being shamed or forced into harmful practices. Our collective voices are stronger than any attempts at conversion, and it is through sharing our stories that we can create a more inclusive and accepting world for all.

I’m grateful to Dr. Wilson for bringing these important stories to light and for giving a platform to survivors of what amounts to attempted brainwashing. This anthology is a crucial contribution to the ongoing fight for LGBTQ+ rights, and I am grateful and humbled to have had the opportunity to endorse it. So let’s continue to uplift and amplify these voices, and work toward a future where conversion practices are nothing but a dark chapter in our history. Together we can create a world where love and acceptance prevail over hate and intolerance.

Here’s a transcript of our interview with Dr. Wilson, who has also written for Whosoever and was a plaintiff in a class-action lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Education challenging whether religious colleges and universities should be able to receive federal funds while discriminating against LGBTQ+ students.

What inspired you to write this book? 

I have been writing and speaking about conversion therapy — now often referred to as “conversion practices” — for several years. Because of my work in this area, along with my involvement in trying to ban conversion practices nationwide in Canada, I was invited by Alex DiFrancesco (who became my fabulous editor) to put together a collection of stories about conversion practices as told by survivors themselves. We both thought it was important that these stories be written by survivors; representation of conversion practices has not always centered survivors’ voices, and we wanted to ensure that this collection spotlighted survivors and their experiences.

What was the biggest thing you learned, or the most unexpected thing that surprised you, while writing it? 

Although I had worked on the topic of conversion practices for a while, it became clear through editing Shame-Sex Attraction that my perspective was limited and that I did not fully understand the wide range of conversion practices. Before putting together the collection, I had largely focused on my experience in conversion therapy at Liberty University, along with experiences that were similar to my own. I of course knew that not every survivor’s experience was identical, but I came to realize through both doing the research for the book and reading story submissions that conversion practices can and often do look quite different.

No doubt there are typically a number of similarities, but sometimes conversion practices are not as obvious or overt, depending on the context. For instance, a few of the contributors recount how their own parents were their conversion practitioners. Such stories were shocking, but they revealed to me how experiences can and do widely vary.

What do you hope LGBTQ+ people take away from the book? What about allies?

I hope that LGBTQ+ folks and our allies alike are reminded that conversion practices are very much still ravaging the hearts and minds of countless queer individuals. Many think that conversion therapy is a thing of the past and is no longer affecting LGBTQ+ communities. However, conversion practices continue to be a reality for many queer people, even for those in places where it is banned. Indeed, conversion practices still occur in countries, states, and municipalities where it is illegal, but like all crime, it just goes underground.

Shame-Sex Attraction documents how several authors of the included stories were subjected to conversion practices up until quite recently, and I hope that readers realize that although the contributors to the collection were eventually able to find their way out of conversion therapy, many queer folk throughout the world are still facing the harms and horrors described in the pages of this book. The stories thus represent more than the individual survivors’ experiences; these stories speak more broadly to what continues to happen to queer people today and what will likely continue to happen in the future.

What impact do you hope the book has on society?

I really (and I mean really) want this book to change the minds of conversion practitioners and those who support conversion practices — that is, to show them how dangerous it is to try to change others’ sexualities and genders. I want to show them the psychological, emotional and spiritual harm these efforts cause. However, I know that the vast majority of conversion practitioners and their supporters will either not read this collection or not change their minds.

In either case, I also hope this book finds its way into the hands of survivors and that they see themselves in the pages of Shame-Sex Attraction. I hope this book helps them find solace in the fact that they are part of a community that has persisted despite numerous attempts to erase us. And I hope this book reminds them that they are beautiful, strong, and resilient, that they are indeed survivors.

How do you think your own journey would have been different had this book been around when you were younger?

I think reading a collection of stories similar to Shame-Sex Attraction would have allowed me to come to terms — that is, find terms or language — to describe my experience in conversion therapy when I was younger. The stories, along with the introduction to the collection, would have furnished me with others’ perspectives on the harm of such practices.

Sometimes, part of the violence of conversion therapy is that individuals do not always perceive what is being done to them as damaging in the moment because they think that what the conversion therapist does and says is good for them, but when they come to realize that they cannot change and begin to blame themselves for their inability to change, they often turn on themselves and see themselves as the problem — as was the case for me.

Indeed, for me, the real damage came in the year or so after conversion therapy, when I started to blame myself for my inability to become straight. However, had I had a book like Shame-Sex Attraction, I might have been able to sort through my experience with more clarity.

These are some pretty horrific stories, but clearly change efforts don’t work. Why do you think people still engage in conversion practices?

People are still practicing conversion therapy for a number of reasons. For starters, I think some folks sincerely don’t know that it does not work and that queer folk cannot change their sexualities or genders. They believe it is a choice to be queer (although, notably, they often believe that it is not a choice to be straight). This ignorance is of course startling for many of us, especially those of us who are queer, but I do believe such ignorance is part of the problem.

Another reason people practice conversion therapy is because many religious communities, especially white Christian fundamentalist and evangelical groups, allow their theory (that is, their theology [for theology is after all just theory about God and God-related things]) to eclipse their lived realities and the lived realities of others. They believe that with God all things are possible, which includes being able to change individuals’ sexualities or genders (but only if those sexualities and genders are “sinful,” of course).

As so much theology does not actually align with lived reality — especially if one isn’t straight, white, and a man — believing that God is in the business of changing queer folks’ “deviant” sexualities and genders is certainly on the table for them.

In writing this book what would say is the biggest hypocrisy of the Christian faith?

In writing Shame-Sex Attraction, I would say that one of the biggest hypocrisies of the Christian faith is the church’s hyper-fixation on queerness while disregarding the (numerous) planks in their eyes. So often the church claims that queer people — especially trans folks and drag queens as of recent — are deviants, predators, and threats to children.

However, the irony is that there are dramatically few trans folks or drag queens guilty of the accusations the church levels against them, and as it turns out, there are countless pastors, church workers, and parishioners who are found guilty of sexual assault, sexual abuse, and pedophilia. No doubt, there are many other hypocrisies within the church, but these are the ones that have stuck to me out most recently.

What do you say to those who want us to be forced into changing who we are?

I don’t typically speak with such unfortunate people, but I think an easy tactic is to reverse the situation and ask them if they think they could change their own sexualities or genders. Of course, the answer is no — for no one can change their sexualities or genders on their own volition — but of course, it is equally absurd to suggest that queer people would somehow be able to do so.

What do you say to those who would attempt to change who we are by these methods?

Again, I don’t normally speak with such folks, but I can offer a brief story of the last conversion therapist I encountered. The conversion therapist’s name is Daren Mehl, a gay man who is married to a woman. Every so often he comments on my tweets on X/Twitter about Shame-Sex Attraction.

Earlier this year, when I tweeted about how well written and captivating the stories in the collection are, he retweeted my tweet with the following caption: “Looking forward to reading this. How to reconcile the prodigal stuck in sin means you have to listen to their stories. Find how to bear their burdens and bring them the truth where the enemy has held them in lies.”

I know that folks like Daren are not interested in actual dialogue — as most in the New Christian Right are not interested (they just want to talk at us, hear their own voices, and recite scripture and their beliefs to us) — so I don’t typically speak directly to them. I prefer to expose them for who they are by way of the written word.

In response to Daren, I retweeted his tweet with the following caption: “It’s always fun when conversion therapists like Daren say that they look forward to reading your work. I think that Daren, a gay man, is *really* going to like the story I wrote for this collection, as it has many references to penises. Happy Pride, Daren!! 🏳️‍🌈.”

Insofar as Daren is a fellow queer, I think it’s always good to remind him that he’s not fooling anyone; we know, just as well as he does, that he is gay. And it is my pleasure to publicly remind him and, in turn, the world that conversion therapists are nothing short of actors who do a poor job at convincing others that they are straight.

Finally, and hopefully not the least: How do you view this book, as an exposé of the Christian faith, or as stories of Christian sexual abuse?

I view this book as both an exposé of the Christian faith and stories of Christian sexual abuse because, in the context of most of the stories in the collection (and often in the workaday world), the two go hand-in-hand. Conversion practices — commonly called “pastoral” or “biblical” counseling in ecclesial contexts — are wildly common in Christian churches, colleges and ministries. These practices are coercive, damaging and harmful. Otherwise put, they are abusive. I hope this collection helps shed light on this abuse that is endemic to so many of these organizations.

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